Category: Geeks r Us
Please, someone explain to me why there are so many screen readers for windows. I say pick one and stick with it. Dont' tell me that one is better than the other because at the end of the day they all crash, and face it, not everything is accessible. Satogo is a complete rip off, because if you go somewhere and need quick access, you'd better pray there is internet or your screwed, unless you have NVDA, but if you have NVDA, you'd better hope that when loading a webpage in firefox it doesn't just give an error sound and then you have to relaunch it. Or with jaws, you'd better hope your job doesn't involv using open office or VMWare, because if so, the video intercept will not work on the host machine. Or same thing with Window eyes.
My point is that all of these screen readers do the same damned thing there are still boat loads of limitations. So please tell me why I haven't had any issues with voice over and mac? Please tell me why access to linux and mac just seems to work seemlessly. While I know there are issues, I myself haven't experienced them and even if there are, they are dealt with immediately and fixed right away.
I am just fed up with all of the garbage with windows and while people may say I'm impatient, I am not, and then I need to do something I need it to work and I need it to work all of the time, not 4% of the time, not 36% of the time, 100% of the time, and I'm sorry, but both linux and mac just do it.
So my argument is, why are there so many screen readers and access methods when it is nothing but a marketting ploy, or just another wanna be that will ultimately at the end of the day, just rip you off another $500 or so? NVDA does things that jaws can't, and it's free, I'm paying a grand for a damned video intercept? What a bunch of bull!
I frown upon people who use jaws 9 and vista, not out of ignorance, but out of stupidity.
Who doesn't agree with me here? I'm sure I'll get probably mostly everyone on here not agreeing with me, and that wouldn't surprise me in the least!!!
I am not stupid for using Jaws. It is what our disabilities services buys us and I haven't paid a dime for it. I do just fine with Jaws. From what I understand, they all have their problems but I am just glad we have something to use so we can access a computer. Maybe next year when I finish college I will try mac but for now Jaws gets the job done.
Yes, I'm not arguing it doesn't get the job done, but my point is that half the time there is some issue or other than prohibits us from doing something. For example, the vmware or IE/firefox issue. Even if you dont' pay for it, you are still using a product that overloaded, buggy and a resource hog. That is my point, asside from the fact that it gets the job done most of the time.
to post 3:
The Firefox issue,by that, you mean how Firefox 3 don't work with Jaws 7, or 8?
I use this machine, with Jaws, because I have to, its a college thing, but you do have a point when it comes to the Mac and Linux and they just working, with almost no crashes.
I like my mac, so glad I bought it, it saved me when this machine went down, a few weeks ago.
And yeah, I would like to know why we're paying $1200 for Jaws Pro, and another $200 per Remote Desktop user, when Window Eyes has that built in for free?
Finally, whose idea was it to give us a license scheme that at least with Jaws doesn't carry the Activation over, like Windows XP, when restoring in disk image, no matter what program we use to image, our drives?
Again, to post 4, it is a marketting ploy. What people need to understand is that just because a screen reader is popular doesn't mean it is by any means good or eficient. it just means that people are sucked into scams. I for one think that linux has come a long way and so has the mac. As i've said, there is no reason for me to stick with windows if I can get my office suit to work in mac come september when i probably get my macbook. Of course I'll keep this laptop around for using linux when I decide to stick it on here.
cody think of it this way.
why are there so many brands and types of cars? they all do the same thing, no difference at all.
people choose a certain screen reader because they like it. maybe there a lot of screen readers, but not every one is exactly the same.
Dude, shut up and just stick with mac and linux and shut up. THeir r a lot of screen readers because people want them to act and behave certain ways. Linux and mac do things that windows can't, but u can turn that around and say that mac and linux and mac can't do certain things that windows can, or they make it a bit harder to do. I liked my mac, and I can't wait to get it back in september, but for now, I'm happy with jaws 9 and windows. If u like mac and linux good for u. Shut up and use them. I also like rat's analogy. Good way to put it.
Again, you and rat would say that. But you're missing my point entirely and the car thing made no sense
And, yes, all screen readers pretty much do the same thing. If one app is not accessible to one screen reader you can bet it ain't going to be accessible, period. This is my argument. All cars get you from point a to point B whats your point cars are full of bugs like windows. they break like windows and screen readers. what is your point
The point is that the only difference between different brands of cars is the company name and maybe a couple select features that they throw in to grab your attention, same with screen readers. They all have their flaws. So some people prefer one over the other, what gives you the right to attack them for it? I agree that JAWS is overpriced for the job it does, but what are you gonna do, blind people get ripped off every day, it seems that everything we need accessibility-wise is overpriced, so why are we having this discussion?
this is boring, really boring.
If you ok, here is what I want to say. each screen reader has there ups and downs, but, I say pick the one you like best.
Jaws, has a lot of things NVDA doesn't.
and no one said anything about hal.
nor thunder, or wel... screen demon, I know that sucks.
anyways, this is just borring!
*yawns*
I agree, and that's what I basically just said.
Last time I checked, the Mac was not fully accessible. Voiceover is a great product, and it comes with the mac, but then again, the Mac itself is overpriced, and voiceover still needs work. I wouldn't call a product truly accessible until I could do everything on it, from music editing to shopping, to reading spreadsheets.
As for Linux, I don't much about it, so if anyone uses it, seriously, how accessible is it? I know it can be customized in all sorts of ways, but can I use a Linux based machine as my primary Computer with the same confidence as I use a Windows Machine?
I use Jaws 8 with XP, and NVDA, which is awesome.
Different screen readers just mean better choices, from the open source products and free products, to the commercial ones. More choices mean more competition and competition is good for the consumer. We get better products. There is no reason to complain.
I agree with dez and the post before hers. This is really stupid and pointless. And if u think about it, the cars analogy did make perfect sense. Try thinking it through then before u post, and maybe you'll get what he's saying.
thank you. i really think some people just post here to say they are right and don't think about what others say.
Don't worry, Linux and Mac arn't the end all be all of computers. Let squiggles try getting a job in a corporation that isn't a linux business one with his current attitudes, it won't happen.
As someone who has owned a Mac for more then two years now, I can't really imagine going back to windows. However, not everyone has the luxury of using the OS they want to use all the time. If you attend a school or work in an office that uses windows, then like it or not you're going to have to use windows.
As for the multiple screen readers thing, I really don't mind, especially considering a few of them are open source offerings. I'm hoping that in the near future, one or more of these projects will be as good as or better then the commercial offerings. Then the commercial producers won't be able to justify charging so much for their software, and prices should fall.
To post 13, everything you listed can indeed be done on a Mac. Also, Macs don't cost much more then comparably equipped PCs. In the long term they are cheaper since you don't have to pay to upgrade the Screen Reader.
I agree that the car analogy makes perfect sense.Also I don't see a problem with jaws 9 or vista. Both of my vista machines (laptop and desktop) seem to work well except for the occasional problem with drivers and updates. Also i have seen on these boards that macs are not perfect either. http://www.zonebbs.com/boards.php?t=16940 Nothing against mac linux or windows here just making a point since i have never used either mac or linux
As for post 10, you truely are a follower. Waht, you're just going to say "oh, ok, whatever I dont' care if i get ripped off I don't mind" I'm not attacking anyone. I'm making a stern statement and want someone to validize my point. Second of all I want to see how many people actually dont' mind paying $$$ for garbage pieces of software, Yes, I said it. Although at this point why should I even be surprised?
To Killroy then don't post. * yawn* to you as well. Again, another fool who doesn't mind utilizing 50% of there resources and shelling out big bux for a low end product. It is sore people like this who are meerly followers and there is no other way to put it.
Obviously it wasn't that boring, or else you wouldn't have taken the time to read this, or for that matter, post twice. You people are simple minded fools. Yes, I'm going to say it You repeatedly prove to me and many others on here that a lot of people who are blind and otherwise are ignorant fools and I am posting these threads to bring it out. It is embarrassing to me that I am surrounded with loads of ignorance and no one really seems to care. Either you are rich and don't mind shelling out the cash or you are a sheep who knows what is happening however doesn't want to face the truth.
To yeah ok. The mac may not be 100% accessible but that does not mean by any means it is not accessible at all. It is, in my opinion, about 99% accessible and all I need is open office to work properly which will happen in September. Linux is fully accessible I don't care what anyone says I have been studying, and messing with it for a couple of years and have used everything there is to be used for accessibility perposes. The terminal is far the easiest, most convenient and most accessible to work with. And, then you also have the Gnome desktop environment which is mostly accessible for what i've needed. But for what I need isn't just what I need. That concept goes throughout the desktop. Macs are not over priced by any means. Have you looked at the quality? They are not junk pc's that you pick up from Circus City. Look at these macbooks, you drop them from a tower and it still works. The graphics are 10 times better and the building of the machines are solid and sturdy. Not to mention the architectural aspects. Have you ever felt an iMac and the speakers? They don't feel like normal speaker grates. There is nothing more to be said here.
Mike, it made no sense and said nothing valuable. Why can't people try to understand my point before shooting me down. Why can't we have a legitimate argument rather than all of you just telling me that I know nothing? Some of you, or most of you as it were, are so attached to Windows it's not even funny, so I am trying to expose you and trying to wake you up to these scams people are over seeing, and while it might be petty things at first, these things will grow and I will not stand for it.
Rat, please. I never said I was right. Tell me what I said that I claimed to be 100% right about? Once again, a say nothing post.
To battle doosh. Show me a corporation that wants to be attacked with sensitive data. I know many people who'd love me as a network admin, and this is because I actually care about this stuff. Ok, so you want to play it easy and just accept a job in a microsoft environment. Ok, fine, get paid average and have your issues with windows, and constantly deal with attacks. Trust me, any good company with sensitive data that people would die for to get their hands on Will not be running windows. I was offered a beginner placement at Quest diagnostics when I shadowed the team around. They were running AIX, HPUX, redhat, and a few others. They only had a couple machines with windows if any I did not see them there. Let squiggles try getting a job in a corporation that isn't a linux business one with
his current attitudes, it won't happen. Why not, specify, please. Is it because I care and don't want the easy way out? Imho, linux has seemed to me to be the most accessible rather than windows. More things can be done on the terminal and you don't have to worry about a UI crashing, which it rarely does.
DHS Darcy, thank you. But as I 've just said, why would I choose a job working with windows? Why would I perposely choose a job working with something I dont' like? This is my career in progress people, why would I screw it up for myself. I have goals and I have dreams, and you guys are telling me not to follow them. It's like, "well you'll never get a job working with what you want so just give up and stay with windows". Uh uh, not going to happen here.
Brandon. These are computers, they will have issues. just like Vista and jaws 9 oh please, lets not go there.
A. Jaws doesn't read sidebar well, or UAC warnings.
B. Vista is bloated thats putting it nicely.
C. UAC is a scam anyway to make users think it is more secure, yes, google it.
D. Vista uses 3 quarters of all your resources, sorry don't think so
D. Jaws 9 is bloated and has may many useless features. It pains me to see a company change something as small as gmail into GMail and charge a grand for it. Again, I'm not falling for it. I'm looking at these issues from many standpoints of a user and an admin. That's all here folks and you're treating me like I'm a terrist about ready to strap a bomb to the zone or something. Get. A. Grip!
If u think your better then all of us, then get the hell out of here. I'm not rich and u fucking know that. The car analogy did make damn snese, try looking at it. I'll agree with u ttht vista is bloated, and that's one reasony i'm not gonna use it. U know what? fuck it. I'm out. You'll see sooner or later, maybe not all these posts r right, but some of them make perfect sense.
it makes damn sneeze? yes, I do sneeze a lot. Those windows are dusty hint hint hint.
Shut up Cody, nobody asked you to be a sarcastic smart ass. And you complain about people attacking you? Have you ever heard of two wrongs don't make it right? Because you just did a damn good job attacking everyone else, so how about you just let it go if you want to think you're berrer than everybody else?
yeah, why did you have to pay for JAWS just to fix the GMail issues when I have been doing that using the Dictionary Manager to do it sunce JAWS 7.1?
Agree with Post 19.
Dess, I wasn't accusing anyone or trying to say i'm better. I'm simply making a point. But it does go to show that everyone just thinks I'm trying to be snoody when I'm not trying to be at all. No one can put up a good argument, so people come back with this. I'm not bashing people because they don't agree with me, I am looking for legitimate arguments here, not "you're a smart ass" or "you aren't the best" I never said I was and I don't claim to be. But it is quite funny how one of these posts are started and you always get those types of replies "you are smart ass and are trying to be the best". I'm just trying to get real answers with real arguments. the world isn't friendly all of the time, so my simple answer is, deal with it. Either argue reasonably or don't answer at all. Please. I like starting these arguments to see the inteligence and creativity of people. But it is apparent to me that we just don't have it here. I suppose I'm arguing in the wrong place. People, like Dess, need to stop taking these things to seriously as if I'm attacking you personally. This is not a personal attack it is a legitimate argument. I want more than the usual answer that "oh well I need this or I need that so shut up". I won't settle for that. However if you'd like to perceive that it is, then so be it. With the exception of spike I will put it out there that I know more about these topics than most of the people here, and please note my language in this sentence and dont' dare take it out of context. I said most, not all. This is why I am encouraging the separation of topics in the geeks are us boards. If I can't get inteligent people to put up inteligent answers about certain things then these topics will stay in view of everyone. If you don't like my posts, or challenges of your inteligence/arguments, then don't answer me. If it bothers you that much, then perhaps you might help me to get separate categories other than one big mosh pit under geeks are us. I am trying to learn and teach at once and I will occomplish this task at whatever means it takes. I am not putting anyone's inteligence down, don't be mistaken, but it is a method of learning. One can learn by putting what one knows and understands to the test. for this, one must put aside their ego and offensive side. because if you keep taking offense to things that I say you will never get anywhere. I don't care if I offend anyone because I don't intend to in the first place. With this said, I will continue to put up arguments if I feel that I can get some legitimate answers from people.
Well, when you started the post you weren't attacking anyone, but you did attack everyone else's views once they didn't agree with you. What did you expect? You're not the only person who's right. And even if you were, people would still have the right to their own opinions. You need to learn to show some respect. You turned this discussion from computers to insulting everyone's intelligence. If you don't like other people's opinions, that's too bad.
I never said I didn't like others opinions. Because first of all, no one gave their opinion, or at least none of which were of any use. Again, i will say that if you and others wish to take my words as insults, then do so, but I'm saying what I am saying and what I have said are not meant to be offensive. I will leave it at that.
All I have to say is actions speak louder then worsd, and the way u were acting in your posts, it makes u seem snoody and a smartass. I know that u aren't and dez knows that u aren't, but the way u wrote that, it really made u sound like u r. Did that make any sense whatsoever?
Yes it did, and thank you for saying it, at least I'm not the only one.
I say your an idiot because your attitudes demonstrate it. Nothing is black and white especially not in the enterprise world. Believe it or not there's a lot more to IT then network admins who protect the network boundry between the inside and outside world. DOn't give me this linux desktop crap, because the last decade has been the year for mass adoption of the linux desktop and it hasn't happened yet. Not all software corporations need runs under linux so you will need windows workstations. Yes you could move away completely from windows but the cost in retraining, and redoing your processes often times is prohibitive and it makes more business sence to continue to pay the windows lisencing fees. As far as servers go if I were an IT manager I'd much rather shell the mony out to have my developers write internal web applications in .net then using any open source languages. Microsoft languages are simply easier to program in and the increase in developer productivity is more then worth the cost you pay in lisencing. You show your immaturity by implying that Linux and Mac are one size fits all and windows can go die. In the enterprise nothing is ever black or white and there are often 8 or 9 shades of gray. People said the mainframe is dead for the last 30 years and it's still ticking not everything is moved over to Linux because the cost is prohibitive and reliability just can't compare to that of the mainframe. In the same way windows has a lot of legacy and will be around for a long time to come. I'd much rather have a choice of screen readers that allow me to do my job in a workplace where windows is still an integral part of the technology infostructure and pay $900 to start and another $200 a year then have to fight battle one which is convincing the IT people to let me use linux for daily work, and then waste a lot more then $200 worth of time every year trying to find alternative ways to do tasks that already have processes in place for windows users.
Thank u battle. That's what he needs to understand, but it doesn't seem to be working.
It probably won't, either.
I never said "windows can go die" what I said was that Linux is much more cost effective. I'm not going to tell an employer "hey you can spend $10,000 or more on windows servers and all their licenses, but remember that the licensing only goes so far". as where mac XServes are unlimited licenses and I forget the exact price, something like 2 grand. Thats a lot better than paying for all those additional fees. What about active directory? Well, we've got likewise. So as you see, I never said windows could go die, because in my humble opinion, I think that Linux as i've said before is much more accessible. Don't tell me you can open up a recovery console with a windows xp disk and tell me it's accessible cause you're full of it. Linux it is. Mac it is as well, and I also never said flat out that linux and mac were be all end all. This is what you nut jobs are taking out of context which is why I like starting these threads. Also, we've got people here who are taking sides (mike) and (dess) who don't know anything, or hardly anything about what battle doosh and I are talking about. But that's ok, battle doosh can go get a job and tell an employer that they'll have to spend loads of cash to get those licenses. Look at the hardware too. XServes are expensive, but I sure as hell know they don't go down easily. Also, they are accessible right out of the box with voiceover. What more could you ask for. Why is it that I point out all this stuff that is over seen? Well, all I can say is that I dont' want to work for a company where most of my time is spent defending myself against spyware, viruses and so on. I want to be productive. Hell, even at my technical school I don't even think they use windows. They run Netware. Netware is still Linux, albeit proprietary, but it's linux nonetheless. Netware isn't even accessible and anyone who knows worth a damn about servers knows this. Another area I will not work in. So I'll ask, why would an employer turn me down if I told them that everything a bank of windows servers could do, linux/mac could do as well, but at a fifth of the cost and have it be more secure? I dont' know about you, but if i was that employer that deal would sound mighty sweet.
So you say that linux accessibility hasn't come along all the way, specify. I can use bash, I can use gnome. if i can use the terminal I'm I pretty much have access to the system. And first of all. I wouldn't be ignorant enough to walk into a company and demand that everything be switched over, if this is what you are implying. What I would do is walk into a company that hardly has any networking staff and that doesn't have a large area of servers and place an offer. Because once it's been converted at a small level, why would you want to go back? That is what my task is to convert small setups before they become soiled. There are things outside of Windows, you know. and easier programming? If I'm not mistaken, you can do sql from linux, and I believe you can program just about anything you need in linux. As far as emplyment goes, well, unless there is an urgent need, then you're screwed. I've said it twice and I'll say it again, that i am trying to convert small companies, or will try to anyway, to convert so that these things won't happen.
cody, you keep making it look like everyone elses points are wrong, and yours is right. i personally think macs are way over priced. i mean how much would it be to get a laptop with a 1.7 dual core, a gig of ram, and a 120 gig drive in mac style. In windows style i got mine around $700.
also, you need to stop coming across as the great know-it-all, all you're going to do is get yourself laughed at or worse people will treat you as one.
Another point people never bring up in the Windows vs Mac comparison is multiple installations, sure you pay $1000 for Windows with 5 licenses and, yes, it's over priced etc, but if you need a laptop, work computer, home desktop and a little barebones one (I have the EEE, does great email, skype, internet etc for $299 with Windows XP) you'd have to replace all of those with Macs the premium you pay would be much more than $1000 over a similar Windows system. The myth that Windows keeps crashing and is unstable is simply untrue by now. My XP hasn't crashed in 2 or 3 years despite me running multiple heavy duty data processing apps with visual studio, Eclipse and database query apps open playing music etc. XP with sp2 is an absolutely great operating system, sure there are a lot of good things to be said for linux and Mac, I think the new file system is really awesome where you can partition the drives irrespective of how the hardware configuration is (although I'm not 100% sure if this is in use or just beta by now, I think unix servers use this).
Neither with linux nor Mac could I open an Excel spread sheet edit formulas write code, draw fancy diagrams sink it with email and have the spread sheet email itself, VoiceOver does not deal that well with Excel yet, Jaws does a fantastic job. And yes, why do you have jeeps and trucks and little cars, why doesn't just everyone drive a malibu? There's a huge difference in screen readers, functionality and customizability and price and I love the fact I have a choice, with Mac there's no choice, Apple pretty much dictates what you get in terms of software and you have to use clumsy propriatery applications such as Itunes, the reason I stopped using my Ipod altogether and switched to a Creative mp3 player.
There's very little specialized software that exists for linux machines, banking, for instance, relies on huge software systems to caluclate and analyze risk, on the back end they can use linux servers for pure calculations but it would take tremendous amounts of rewriting to make it linux based. Banks like Microsoft's support and responsiveness (even if it isn't fantastic it's actually pretty decent, if you are a corporate customer, I've worked with a Microsoft developer directly and helped uncover a bug in .net regarding file time stamps, they provided me with a fix that worked perfectly in a very short amount of time).
I think the whole discussion is really silly, there are apps linux and unix are great for, especially for servers, for minimal installation for a specific tasks and for inexpensive software. Some linux distributions are simply engenius when it comes to updates and there's a lot Microsoft and Apple learn from those, but for office and programming related things Windows is the way to go, .net is the best programming environment hands down (of the ones I've tried and I've tried a good deal), it's mainstream, makes every day internet user tasks simple and there's widespread adaption and use. I'm disappointed with Vista but I also was with XP until sp2, I think Vista will become cool, they are doing away with the video intercept drivers as they move towards using xml and separating functionality and presentation, the Serotek guys actually wrote a good article on this.
All this being said I think the original poster displays amazing degrees of narrow mindedness, but if linux makes him happy, by all means, he can use it, if he wants to miss out on the cool stuff that exists for Windows that's not my problem.
O...I don't know anything about what u r talking about do I? Dez doesn't know what your talking about? And what gives u that idea? Explain to me that. I don't know much about linux, seeing as I haven't used it that much, but Mac and windows, I do know a few things about. So, don't tell me what the hell I know and what I don't know. And what makes u think that Dez doesn't know anything about this? I think wild brew is right, if u wanna use linux, go right ahead, but your gonna miss out on stuff, but that's your loss.
To post 32:
Mac Osx Server is $500 for a 10 user license and $1000 for the full unlimited license.
The price of servers is a whole other area, and no, Mac Osx isn't perfect, but its very very damn close.
Only problem I personally see with linux command line only is, that you've got to have either a braille display that BRLTTY supports, or hope that the terminal speech synth supports more than just ESpeak...:)
I'll post later on today with a url for a review of Mac Leopard Server, it says nothing about Voice Over, but it covers all the other major stuff that a server is supposed to do, including Windows integration.
There are 2 versions of Likewise, Open which is free, and Enterprise, which isn't, its for Linux and Mac, allows Active Directory to work with the 2 OS's.
very well put. his loss
I never said windows was a piece of garbage and should never be used. I said that if I am working for a company my work probably would be better of trusted on that plat form. I would feel extremely uneasy about working with windows merely do to the fact of how much one can take down a windows box. Detele your ntdlr and you're screwed that is how easy it is. I never said windows wasn't cool or fun to play with. Hell I'm reinstalled 4 times in the passed month do to norton ghost never working. gutted the thing and tweaked the hell out of it. I've installed all aps I need. I know what can be done to make it fancy, registry toying and what not, but it is such an easy o/s to bring down its not funny which is why I'd never ever dare work in this type of environment if I can bear it. Brings me back to the entire screen reader issue. Mac has voiceover. Mac is unix based. therefore, I'm sure it can be scripted or advanced upon just like orca in this respect. Don't dare try to do that to jaws. You are stuck with the simple scripting user inbterface. You are basically limited to what the video intercept can relay to the speech engine. I have used all the major screen readers and have never seen any difference toher than dislikes in my opinion of each. I've had issues with all of them. I agree they should shit can the entire video intercept and if they did, a big if, then I'd be thrilled. Vista is a whole other story we've already been there. I am not a programmer, but I respect those whoa re, and I would say that 80 to 90% of languages can be ported to linux/unix/mac of any sort. But again, my mission is to start early in a company. A place where I can demonstrate what I know, and not have a team of 1000000 administrators on my back telling me what to do. I need an environment to start myself with a small office that can have 1 or 2 servers and then work from there, to ease myself into the work field of this area. It would be hanus to just say "oh well, you'll nbever get paid with this type lof job" but if someone says that, which I pretty much guarantee they will you have misread my posts. Because what I said was not where I will stop at, but rather start at. My friend is the same age as me working for a realestate company across the street and is making much more money, having the same level of experience I have so I know for a damn fact it can be done, so I have confidence in that.
being harsh is the only way I can get my point across. Pissing off and sturring up trouble is how people begin to wake up. May not agree with me, but at least you can see my point of view. I am in no way narrow minded or mean, harsh or any of that bull. Reading in between the lines and basing your opinion on me based on text is quite ignorant. This is why I've done this because people on here and all over tend to base me on my text without meeting me or talking to me. So, keep going into ignorance without caring, but I'm just stating the truth here. Even some people in voice I will not name names, but some people don't give me the time of day even in voice to talk. Therefore, I ask myself why i should waste my time with such a place like this?
Here's the Mac osx Server review: http://www.pcmag.com/print_article2/0,1217,a%253D227133,00.asp
If you want people to give you the time of day, maybe you shouldn't put yourself in a position where you look so arrogant. I never would've expected that from you, considering I have talked to you in person before, so don't say I don't know what I'm talking about. As far as the whole point of this post, maybe I don't know as much as you do, but you know what? That doesn't particularly bother me. And it doesn't really bother me that you choose to stick your head up your ass either. What bothers me is the way you have a total lack of respect for other people's feelings, which I didn't see in you before...But people change, don't they? I really don't care what you think, to be honest, but don't jump on my case and say Mike and I don't know anything when you twist things around that people say to make yourself sound better. But I could really give a shit less what you think of me, since you're just gonna keep thinking it no matter what anybody says. And as a side note, I already know how crappy Windows is, but unlike you, I'm not getting into networking, so there's no need for me to obsess over it. Maybe you think that makes me look ignorant, but I'm just doing what I want to do because I don't have a problem with it at the moment.
To post 40:
Are you referring to me, or the original poster that started the topic?
If I seemed errigant, my bad.
cody, how would i know how you are, you won't fricken talk to me even when i was able to talk to you! explain that one buddy.
This is the last reply I will make to this thread.
To Dess. I have said time and time again I have respect for others feelings. However I felt as if I should be stern with this thread to wake some people up. Apparently it did the job and it did it well. I'm not arragant, I was just being solid and blunt with my statements and people took it way out of context, as always.
Rat you know why I won't talk to you. I don't want to hear about games and games. I want nothing to do with them. We won't go there.
With this said I give this thread the lethal injection
maybe not cody, that was when you first heard of me. i wouldn't have even talked about games anymore, but you won't give me a fricken second chance.
Hey, well, what are you gonna do? I agree, we're not getting anywhere and this whole post went way off track anyways, so how about we all forget about it since, as I said before, it doesn't matter what anybody says, it'll just continue to go around and around in circles accomplishing nothing.
Sur Bitch alot at it again. Mikes car thing made purfict sense there are different sqreenreaders, and some people don't have probloms when useing them. Why are you bitchen about everything you don't do, and how you are better? You aren't better then everyone stop acting like you are, and grow up. You may frown on us, but you are the one being frowned on by people.
I agree with dez, lets just drop this.
Spike, now I figured out how to spel your name. I see these sectons in there and tha'ts was confusing. Wow, what a debate. I have to agree with spike and squig. We are looking at a definate overload here. I use voiceover, Jaws, and window-Eyes as well as system access to go. I have looked at NVDA but before I recommend it would like to see better mouse navigation. If I am not understanding how it works I welcome a lesson. I can't seem to just brows the screen and read the text. I do teach all the readers I talked about and what seperates voicerover from the rest is that once you learn how to use the tools that are available they work in all applications. Once you learn the language of voiceover and understand the concepts you can use any application because the tools available work globally. This makes the learning curve much easier and there is less to remember. I am always chalanged by the question: "which screen reader would you recommend?: as an instructor I am asked this all the time. I really would have to say Voiceover simply because once learned anything is possible. ON the PC side it's hard to make a blanket recommendation. Each screen reader has it's good and bad points and command structure. I tell people to try the demos and see what works best with the apps they like to use.
Ok, I have read all of these post and wish I had actually known about some of these other screen readers. I was working for State Farm Insurance Headquarters and they only have the Jaws program. The Jaws did not work with all their applications and I was let go because I was not able to perform the position I was hired for. If I had this knowledge that I have learned from this post maybe I would still have my job. For some reason Jaws is more commonely used in the work force and I hope this changes, it would be nice if all the screen readers used the same keyboard commands because when I was trying to learn Window Eyes it was so freaken hard learning all the different keystrokes.
Besides this post getting out of hand and nasty there is some good info here.
This is good on voice over.
All functions work in all applications the same. Respectivelly, you need to learn only one set of keystrokes for all mac.
It's certainly quite a bit of waste of resources that each screen reading company has developed its own off screen map code etc. You see big thoughts on this on the NVDA blog. If some of the code had been open source it could encourage innovation. I think Willy has a point in that Hal, Jaws and Window Eyes are too similar. I think there should be (or will be) at most two competing ones for this niche. I think System Access is slightly different, lower cost, slightly lower function (yet), more intended for the casual computer user. The open source initiatives are good, NVDA is a good idea, System Access 2 Go is as well. Apple's tight control over Mac programs is good and bad, the good things being the easy interface to the user, it's good to see that extends to the screen reading arena as well (although the only Apple software I've tried, i.e. Itunes is absolutely incomprihensible to a Windows user, gave up after 2 minutes and stuck with my copy and paste the song to my drive, no play list, no imports, no annoying ads for stuff on itunes.com), but may be I just can't think outside the Window. At least I'm happy we don't have more than, broadly speaking, 3 categories of operating systems, it'd be better and easier if we just had one but then again, we probably don't want to try and figure out which one it'd be. With xml and plat form independent development languages like Java, as well as WEb Services, a lot of those differences are blurred but I'm really curious to see what the way of the future will be.
I've said this I don't know how many times now, but if u use the jaws cursor, or the windows eyes mouse coursor with itunes, it works perfectly fine.
Music, I know I can get it to work, my point is that it's complicated, takes some screen reader tricks and, to me, it's terribly inefficient. If I have an mp3 album I want to listen to and one minute to get it onto my mp3 player I don't want to import it into iTunes, find it there, create a play list and export it to the player, I want to copy the folder in Windows Explorer and drop it on the player itself, nothing else. I see no need for this middle layer software, but that's Apple's way of doing things. It's more user friendly (especially for newbies) and may be it's convenient once you get used to it, but for me, I want to manipulate the files directly with all its pros and cons, not have some software tell me if it's pics or music or word documents and having to do everything through those applications. But I can see the convenience of it, that way they can standardize the user interface and create a different user experience. Of course the appeal of Linux is that you can go even further in the other direction than Windows and I really like that for some tasks, scripting, for instance.
If there is an application that will not work with jaws, you can bet it won't work with any other screen reader, so why do we have them in the first place? For the casual home user use nvda, but then that has it's own issues as I've said, you can't read all windows. screen review sucks and i've never got it to work. This, my friends, is the nature of windows. I don't quite understand why people think apple is bad for limiting or whatever the user to that screen reader. This is the purpose. You learn one set of easy commands to navigate and there you go. It read everything in the os and yeah there are some apps it won't work with but that is far and few between. I want 1 screen reader that will do anything I need, and voice over just does it and that is the end of that. If you want to script for it I'm sure that is easy. Apple can only get so far in one release, you know. The pros for mac completely outweigh windows or a brand new pc with windows for that matter. Macs you can be damned sure the parts are quality but with pcs you have your shit Acers and your top o the line hp's and prices fluctuate. So my case in point here is that I want a machine I know has quality without playing hunt and peck with 40000 diferent companies, and I want a screen reader that is universal through the o/s and that is built in and that doesn't take all my resources and that doesn't cost a thing. 3 major points right there that prove all of my points about jaws or any other screen reader. Jaws isn't cheap, not built in and doesn't work with everything. If we consider jaws as the best out there then anything under it is sure not going to work with twhat jaws doesn't work with.
I'm glad to see this board is back on topic...
As far as something not working with a screen reader, unless it works with jaws, this is not true, I've done quite a few things with NVDA for example, that JAWS was not able to do. And for that, I've done a few things with SAtogo that NVDA will not do.
Mac has the right initiative in creating a fully functional screen reader and packing it in with their software, but now you have the problem of only having one choice for the Mac. This is a point which is not getting through, even though it's been pointed out time after time.
I have been using macs for a while, their OS has always appeared better to me than windows, but again, this is about screen readers and why there are a bunch of them.
What would happen is Apple just got lazy and decided that the current version of Voiceover was good enough and needed no more upgrades?
What do you say to the Mac user that doesn’t like Voiceover; tough luck?
Yeah, pretty much. One screen reader is all you should need. If you need 3 different screen readers for an o/s that should say something about each of the readers or the o/s itself. Mac you don't have that issue. Dude, they can only do so much in one release of mac osx. And lazy? Look how far they've come in 10.5 with voice over. In 10.4, braille display support was unheard of. Windows=problem central and mac=it just works. End of story. You have plent of choices. code vo the way you want it for all I care. You want choices then stick with winblows then. Apple has the right idea.
Again, you've missed the point once more.
Before OSX, mac still only had one screen reader, Outspoken. It was not made by apple, but again, it was only one choice. And This was not the best product out there.
Apple is not trying to set the right example by having one screen reader, instead of a variety of choices, it's only keeping everything on Macs, owned by Apple.
So again, you are stuck with what you get, and have no other choice. It so happens that this time around, you happen to like what you are stuck with.
My point is that is all you should need. it works and it is continually being updated as Mac is. Times have changed and outspoken is dead. You don't like VO then code another screen reader yourself. I don't understand the concept of having 50000 screen readers out there that all do the same damned thing. Voice over is like jaws. Different platform though, and it works. If I was so inclined I could write my own screen reader, I'm sure people have tried or whatever. Back in the day of dos there were only so many options. I see what you are saying, and it makes no sense. You, in other words, like to have similar pieces of software that do the same damned thing, just so you can say you have choices. If there are revolutionary enhancements, I would consider it, but this is just stupid to say that. So tell me, lets take the mac example. What would you make another screen reader do better. Maybe you can suggest that to apple. This is a waste of time to developers of newer products. You are reinventing the wheel here. Old news. You call apple and ask them about voiceover they will probably help you. Developers are making these products and it would be stupid not to support them.
Ah, how interesting, now I see your point. All screen readers for windows do the same thing, so there is no need for them all. So of course, why doesn't Windows just come out with their own, like Apple has?
Yes, I see it now, there is nothing wrong with this argument.
If you consider narrater to be a screen reader, then they already have. I think you can answer that one. Microsoft is microsoft. They are doosh bags. Apple actually helps people. In my case I've had nothing but good luck with apple. If you like it, then by all means, good for you, but I prefer a *nix based o/s where I don't have to worry about other things among what screen reader can and can't I run to do certain things. Simple people, Simple. Just keep it simple.
I guess, but then again, this is about why there are so many screen readers on Windows, not about how there is simplicity on the Mac OS.
Not many people who have used both, will argue that Windows is better than Mac, but this is about screen readers, and how Windows has choice, with open source and free projects, there is even more of a choice for the future. And now, you can explain how this is a bad thing.
I can't find documentation on this but my understanding from second hand sources is Microsoft wanted to do something like voice over. Companys like freedom scientific and gw micro threatened to sue though, since that would put them out of business.
Exactly. There are more issues when dealing with windows. I am not putting down open source or anything, however even if MS put out their own screen reader I doubt it'd be any good personally. Open source is good, but in comparison to jaws it doesn't do as much, but even still jaws doesn't do as much, and as I said, why do I need 5 different screen readers to do 1 thing? My point by talking about the mac is that there should only be 1 screen reader not 4 regardless if whether it is open source or not. I can't be using nvda with firefox and jaws with meranda and window eyes with vmware or something like that. And also, I doubt very much taht if MS did make their own good luck trying to code it to do whatever you wanted, look at narrater, that's basically what you're looking at if they did make one. I'm sick and tired of people saying, oh I use NVDA or satogo, jaws, window eyes, hal, thunder, whatever the case may be, and they all praise them like they are all better than the next. My point in case is to just shut up! There is nothing better than the next one down the line. Voice over doesn't have this issue. It jsut works.
If jaws were the only screen reader on the PC, it would "just work" also.
Remember, there is no competition on the Mac.
No, and there does not need to be any. There needs not be any competition on pc either. Sure, choices are fine, but in this case there is no point. There is not anymore accessibility that can be had from another screen reader on Windows.
OK, I seem to be posting all the wonderful replies.
If you want to bitch about jaws, then you can bitch somewhere else.
Lets look at orica, for the linux system you proclaim to be 100% perfect.
Welcome to lag, and if it freezes, your genearlly fucked.
Speakup has done a great job, but they've still even got issues.
You are *never* going to get a computer to work 100% accurately each and every time, whether it's linux,mac,windblows, or anything.
As for your comments on jaws and windoweyes,
I think fs has a ways to go with Jaws, and same with gwmicro and windoweyes.
I do believe however, that we're taking steps in accessibility. Jaws 9 has had a ton of improvements from jaws 3.5, and etc--browsing the internet was virtually impossible.
As for your vmware issue:
vmware is a simulator. Basically it runs in it's own paralell system.
Your not going to get jaws to work with vmware for that same reason. There are serial installs out there.
Your next complaint I think was that of cost.
While I think jaws is pricey, we've also gotta look at budget.
FS has to pay their programmers wwages, believe it or not they do need money to survive.
They've also got to be able to handle paying for their 1800 number, etc etc--there are many costs incurred by running a company.
They're not making a 100% proffit on everything that you buy.
While the cost stil may be excessive, there are many many hundreds and more hours that go into developing a screen reader.
I've got a basic frame done, and that's nowhere near accessible enough to be used in any type of environment, and that took at least 50+ hours to get set up.
So, in conclusion, I'll get out the violin and wine.
Your never going to find a 100% accessible solution--it almost sounded like you were trying to promote mac and linux here.
Don't get me wrong, I love linux, but even linux has a long ways to go in accessibility.
I agree with the creator on this point cody. Linux is great, but orca lags like hell, and that's without me using it on the mac in virtual box. I don't think what he was trying to do was promote mac and linux, (yes i know that last bit made absolutely no sense), but I do know he hates windows and would rather use a mac and linux full time. FS and GWMICRO don't get all the phrophet for the screenreaders, and u of all people should know that. I don't really remember how jaws was in 3.7 which was the earliest release of it i used, as I really didn't use the internet with it then. It has come a long way since then, that I do know.
Were you using ESpeak with Orka? The realspeak voices would be a bit less responsive... haha.
You people especially post 66 are screaming ignorance. and didn't I put this topic to its death like 2 weeks ago?
Apparently not.
you kept arguing cody. and let me extend my car idea here. get rid of all the cars, one should do fine. same with screen readers. each to their own.
Ok let me explain why that car thing makes no sense. With screen readers you have one objective, that is to read the damned screen. They all do that and they all have issues and they all don't work very well and they all are pricy.
As for the car thing. Some people can't afford a big fancy car and they just need something to get them from point A to point B. Some people may even get a used car which is even less expensive. Some people want a bit more fancier car. Therefore they can afford the 58 Vette. All of which have varying features and milage specs. You don't have any of that crap with screen readers. Cars don't read your screen, and they are all pricy for an end user who uses his box for word processing and doesn't use his computer all the time. So, rat, as you can see, that car analogy makes no sense. You cannot compare screen readers to cars, that is absolutely a bad example. But you've made your point you can go back having orgasms over jaws 9 and vista. I am now officially once and for all putting this damned topic to rest.
I've said it i don't know how many damn times, read deeper then what's written here cody. His analogy makes sense, your just not seeing it. But, I give up. Go use your mac, and forget about windows if ya want, enjoy yourself.
I should be saying the same thing to you.
Thanks. I will enjoy myself.